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<  Sound effects corrupted in b9
Mixel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:58 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 932
Location: Leeds, UK

Firstly, woohoo! 1.1b9 runs ~30fps constant only my meagre Macbook regardless of what ZH throws at it, even the start of the swamp scrolls like butter.. Smile

Weirdly though (and this happened in the crashy alpha too) the sounds seem to arbitrarily come out as horrible fuzzy CHHHSSSHH interference noise. Sometimes it'll be the frogs, or jumping, or the rats squeak.. when you return to the main menu sometimes it's even the title music. (strange as the music is all MP3s while my sounds are usually AIF - occasionally WAV).

This is after a "quick build" too, so i dont think PGF has actually changed the files.. (looking inside package contents they all seem perfectly normal)

I suspect other people will run into this too, unless ive done something particularly odd while preparing my audio files? (i dont think i have?) I havent had a chance to try it on a machine other than my Macbook yet, but with the messed up UB version it did the same thing on the MBP too.. The same UB's sound is fine on my G5.

Good luck and thanks again, this is a massive step! Its nice to get to use all the power these new intel machines have. Smile
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Last edited by Mixel on Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Admin
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:50 am  Reply with quote
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Glad to hear it's working well aside from the sounds. I noticed the same problem when I played Zombie Holiday recently; it didn't start until the boss battle. There's a possibility that PGF is just really sensitive to any slight corruption in sound files. What program(s) did you use to create the sounds?

I may be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure the venerable .sfil format will work every time. (Or perhaps discussion has been had before...?) Have you used Sound Studio? (http://www.freeverse.com/apps/app/?id=5012) Something tells me it came pre-installed on my Mac.
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Mixel
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:35 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 Mar 2005
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Some are Wavs from a library, the others i did/edited in Audacity. Music i made in garageband.. I have Sound Studio though, so could probably try the sfil thing..

If we had the conversation before id forgotten about it, hehe, so glad to have something to try. Very Happy Thanks muchly..

Hmm, even just swapping the aifs out for wav versions seems like it might help too. (easier than sfil as i weirdly have wavs of all the sounds already for some reason)..


----
Return of an old bug: it's possible to get more than 100% health again, hehe. It's almost impossible to die in ZH with that bug back again. Laughing
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Mixel
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:01 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 Mar 2005
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Eeek, i thought i was getting somewhere but im really not.. I tried re-exporting as different formats, and it seems to have reduced fuzz in some persistent cases, but it still seems to randomly FSSSSSSS over certain tracks. (my Sound Studio and audacity dont have options to save out sfil Sad ..)

Even so - sfil isn't really a viable work around for the music, which the defects are happening on too.. they really need to stay as MP3s or my download size is going to be astronomical. It's not a consistent error either.. If I load the game, the title screen music is fine - load the boss level, complete it, quit back to the menu and the titlescreen's MP3 is suddenly horribly defunct sounding. So it's not necessarily the menu music thats corrupt, but perhaps something else it played during gameplay? Which all makes it really hard for me to track down..

Also, how come its only on intel? could it be a realbasic UB glitch? Maybe i should try limiting all my sound to one format, but eek, that would have to be mp3 to save space, which is going to take some messing around, and it'd be lossy, so I don't know if i should start attempting something like that until its a last resort. Sorry to bug you with bugs again.. Maybe it's just ZH anyway. :}
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Admin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:02 pm  Reply with quote
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I just re-fixed the bug that lets you get more than 100% health... the reason the bug returned was because I stupidly applied the previous fix to a dead branch of the code tree (so to speak.) The still-living branch of the source code tree is definitely better in most respects, but apparently lacking in others Wink I'm getting that straightened out...

As for the sound bug, I added some debugging code to determine whether it was being caused by playing too many sounds at once. But that wasn't it; Greenland Invasion sometimes plays as many as 30 or 40 sounds at the same time, whereas Zombie Holiday rarely plays more than 10 (thanks to less rapid-fire weapons.) Since that's not the problem I guess the best solution is only going to be found an annoying trial-and-error process of determining which sound file formats work best Sad I haven't had any problems with sound files created in SoundEdit 16. It's a pity it's an eleven year old application Wink It seems the best successor to SoundEdit is Amadeus Pro (http://www.hairersoft.com/AmadeusPro/AmadeusPro.html) Unfortunately it doesn't save to the .sfil sound format... and neither does the QuickTime Player, at least not anymore Sad I'm surprised SoundStudio dropped support for that format too... it was last seen in version 2.0.7, but that was a Carbon program from 2002.

.sfil is dead, but I don't have any particular format to recommend. Maybe the best approach is to use the latest version of SoundStudio or Amadeus and the AIFF format. I'll be looking forward to hearing what works best based on peoples' experiences.
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Mixel
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:49 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 Mar 2005
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i looked inside the ZH package and a lot of the files are actually "AIFC files" whatever those are.. Is there likely to be any difference between AIFC and AIF?

im gonna try getting rid of those AIFCs and replacing them with AIFs. *shrugs* - only one way to find out. XD (so scientific!!)

Still a bit concerned about the MP3s though.. Fingers crossed.

Thanks for the health fix and trying to debug the sound, I'll keep you posted if anything works. Smile
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gyroscope
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:51 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Oct 2005
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For info Mixel, AIFC is a compressed AIFF so I reckon you should be OK with making them all AIFFs.

Might be of interest: Macworld (UK edition) has a full working SoundStudio 2 prog on their cover disc...

As for mp3s, I could have sworn that when trying to load them into PGF they are greyed out... I.e PGF donna like 'em; I'll check that out again at some stage.

While we're on the subject of sounds: I've recently discovered a small app that I'm finding mightily useful; don't know if you got it already...

As you know, of course, by double-clicking on sounds to audition them in Quicktime Player can become a bit of a drag; you're left with tens of sounds plastering your screen, it's difficult to find ones already played to play again; and when you do, you have to click the back button every time.

This app sits on your desktop and you simply drag sounds from your folder to it, and it plays the sound (any format). Simple but effective and time-saving, I find.

It's called Play Sound and it can be found on: http://microcosmsoftware.com/playsound/

Razz
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Mixel
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:58 pm  Reply with quote



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I have registered sound studio, so thats no biggie.. Smile

Really weird, some of the sound is persistently messed, regardless of what i try to do to it. AIFF, WAV, mp3 - makes no difference. I just tried playing with the sample rate and re-exporting.. Made no difference either.

I have MP3s loaded into PGF already, all my music is MP3, and some of my longer sound effects.. So.. Umm, yeah that definitely works. Maybe your copy is being weird. Smile

ed: you added lots to your post, eep. Very Happy Thanks, that sounds useful to pre-leopard users.

I remember quicktime being annoying for that too, (I used to switch tiger finder in to column view, then you get the preview in the rightmost pane).. In Leopard I use quickview for navigating sounds.. Press space, then you can scroll around all your sounds with the arrow keys without needing any other apps open. Smile
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gyroscope
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:03 pm  Reply with quote



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I'll re-check the mp3 thingy again then, thanks.

Anyhow, I thought weird copies of PGF costs extra.... Smile

That sounds good ("sounds" good, ha!) I haven't upgraded to Leopard yet for the simple reason that I use some apps - OK, only now and then - within Classic. And I think I'm right in saying that Leopard doesn't have Classic mode anymore... Crying or Very sad

Razz

P.S hope you suss your sound prob eventually; looks like it could be a bug on the Intel side of things maybe.
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Mixel
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:08 am  Reply with quote



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Yeah, no more classic. :/ i think theres a good emulator for it though.

Hmm, well I've played around lots and dont seem to be much closer.. as soon as I think I've cleaned up the noises, a sound effect which worked perfectly earlier in the game suddenly starts doing it at a later stage in the game. Sad

Ok thats even weirder. I cut *out* one of the samples I thought was doing it completely and it still does fuzz in its place! .. Does that make any sense? I "removed" the random sound effect the rats make, and it still fuzzed.. So I moved the "delay between random sounds" to 0 and it seems to be fixed now. Ummm.. lol.

--

Nope, i keep replacing with AIFF.. they act like they're fixed then the "suspect" files break on another play through. Sad The boss chamber seems to be the only place it happens now (after replacing the frog spit noise and removing the random rat noise).. Nothing seems to fix the boss chamber.. Sometimes the telephone noise (AIFF) causes it, and the boss music always seems to do it now. Switched the boss music to M4A in the vague chance that might make a difference.. (Well, that wasn't good! DONT USE M4A, PEOPLE! It plays, but it wouldn't let me quit ZH afterward on PPC *or* Intel. I had to log in remotely with screen sharing to quit it!)

Weird - if you play through the swamp then into the boss level the phone in the boss is FFSSSFFSFSFFSFSS but if you load game directly to the boss room it doesnt. Confuuused.
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Last edited by Mixel on Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:45 am; edited 2 times in total
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Dr. Evil
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:25 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Jul 2007
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so maybe its an issue with pgf looking in the wrong place for sound files/ attempting to interpret non-sounds as sounds?
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Mixel
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:22 am  Reply with quote



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Who knows.. :/ Oh well, fixed now. by removing certain sound effects completely, hehe.

---

Another bug though! when i press escape in the boss chamber.. the screen fades to black but i cant see past it, quit, or get to the desktop. Sad (happening on intel and PPC) I had to use Leopard's screen-sharing feature to be able to see enough to force quit, from another mac. XD

edit: turns out that only happens when you appear in the boss chamber by loading, then press escape.
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gyroscope
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:25 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Oct 2005
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Quote:
Another bug though! when i press escape in the boss chamber.. the screen fades to black but i cant see past it, quit, or get to the desktop.


I've had that happen to me several times before, a while back (same game file), though this was the first level...had to switch the computer off eventually. I have a vague memory that before it started this there was a debug message, (which I ignored and didn't "report"), or maybe something to do with trying to place a different type of file in an ImageWell (a tiff maybe, or some other format PGF isn't happy with); or placing an image in one format but placing its mask image in a different format.....whoah, rambling a bit here... Wink

Anyhow, that might have something to do with some picture change/update you've done recently to your boss chamber level?...

Razz
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Mixel
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:09 pm  Reply with quote



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Not sure, screen sharing works fine as a workaround. (i havent changed the graphics in months btw, just the sound files..)

--

The sound is my priority atm. Nothing seems to fix it. Sad I fix a file then it just.. starts doing it again. Argh. lol, I pretty much spent all day yesterday swapping out sound effects, but any progress is short lived.

Pretty depressing process because I cant tell if what I'm doing is actually helping at all. Crying or Very sad
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gyroscope
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:08 pm  Reply with quote



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I can see that this is driving you to distraction Mixel; it would me too...

If all the sound files are working fine on PPC, its got to be a bug wih PGF interpreting the sounds on an Intel machine, surely?

I guess it doesn't help that, apart from sounds In Miscellaneous, PGF doesn't load in the actual sound file names so its a hassle trying to match sounds ... in fact, I think I'll put that as a suggestion. Though doesn't help you much here, of course...
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Mixel
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:43 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 Mar 2005
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Quote:
If all the sound files are working fine on PPC, its got to be a bug wih PGF interpreting the sounds on an Intel machine, surely?

Yeah that'd be my guess, but that sounds like it might be a RealBasic (or even quicktime?) bug - not a PGF one.. How many ways could there be to play sounds which Jesse could experiment with? Probably not many (at a guess)

So that's scary. Sad
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Admin
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:40 am  Reply with quote
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I'm going to try a very different method of playing audio. Currently the game engine opens a file as a sound and plays it while the CPU is busy displaying the graphics. I'm going to change things so that the graphics are displayed in a thread, allowing the CPU more time to devote to the sounds, and with that extra horsepower the game will be able to rely on QuickTime to play back the audio (before it was relying on its own internal weird sound handling mechanism which apparently isn't quite Intel-ready, and since the game ran in a hard loop no processor time was available to yield to QuickTime.) Based on some quick tests I did, this looks like it will fix the problem without affecting the frame rate. I managed to make the game engine play the Greenland Invasion music along with a Dr. Dre song and some random heavy metal music all at once while the game was running at 30 frames per second. But that was just a preliminary test. So cross your fingers and let's hope for the best!! Thank you Mixel for being so persistent in in the face of stupid buggy computer code.

P.S. A strange side-effect of using this new approach is that .sfil files will no longer work! I guess PGF is the latest app to abandon my favorite sound format Wink
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Mixel
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:15 am  Reply with quote



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Thank you so much. Also for the technical explanation.. I'm not sure what much of it meant but it's always interesting. Smile Fingers well and truly crossed..! Although I've got it down to a "minimum", it's unfortunate the two times it happens now are the times its most likely to give you a heart attack if your volume is up high.

Now the intel side is working, even if there's a performance hit from changing things around.. I dont really mind.. It goes *so fast* on intel, it's great. Very Happy

I was dreading the possibility of there just being one avenue for you to go down for sound playing, knowing v little about RB, so this is veeery good news. Smile

Poor old .sfil ..
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gyroscope
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:27 am  Reply with quote



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May it rest in peace...! Crying or Very sad Wink

Razz
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:33 am  Reply with quote
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I've been working on redoing all the sound code, and it's going pretty well. QuickTime is being used to play back the audio and as such System 7 sound files no longer work. The game's animation controller now yields time to the sound processing code and for some reason that created some incompatibilities with routines that perform other routines. (Mixel your Zombie Holiday boss battle is a great test level for this!) I expect that with another weekend of work I'll be able to get it sorted out. Things are definitely moving in the right direction...
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Admin
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:53 am  Reply with quote
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Yay! Mixel's boss battle no longer crashes, and the sounds aren't getting all staticy any more.

A word of advice to anyone who ever plans to write computer code: recursive functions and multithreading are a bad combination, just like red wine and Bud Lite Twisted Evil

I'm a bit concerned that the new sound code is dragging frame rates down a little, but then again it might just be all the routines that are constantly going off in the levels I've been testing. All in all, things are looking pretty good- I'll release another beta within a week or so.
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Mixel
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:27 am  Reply with quote



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Thanks for all the hard work. Very Happy

I really dont mind losing a few frames here and there - considering my macbook is so slow compared to pretty much every intel config in existence. As long as it can reach full speed on a reasonable spec that's great.

I wonder how it'll handle on my G5 with the next beta too.. Looking forward to it. Smile
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